imported_Graham

I know that the moderators may not find this thread appropriate, and if they don't they can take it down. I have no problem with that. But since this is the Green Room, where we talk about non musical topics, I feel that this is appropriate. I am, however, in no way trying to spread any type of hate through this post or this thread. Not towards any political party, race, religion, gender, or otherwise. I just wish to discuss issues facing our society in a civil manor. So first off, how does everyone feel about the situation in the Middle East right now?

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Soft Revolution.

Paul

This topic is completely fine. I will close it if it gets crazy though.

imported_Graham

All right cool.

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Soft Revolution.

Paul

So graham care to share your opinions on the matter?

imported_Graham

Well one of the latest developments...Iran offers peace talks on their nuclear program. Do you know what I think? I think that they are stalling. They know that its another 2 and a half years (approximately early 2009) until their nuclear weapons will be complete. Until then, they need to buy time. They know that the UN is full of either push-overs or Muslim states that side with them. So they figure they will go in there, talk a little, and nothing will change. Meanwhile, this buys them time-time in which the US can't attack and take out their nuclear program. After Iraq, they are terrified of the US. They are trying to buy time in which they can feel safe from the US. What we need to do is impose very strict sanctions, and if they don't coorporate, we need a UN coalition, and one that will do something without being majority US (even though that will never happen). Then we need that coalition to go in there and make good on their promises that if Iran didn't follow the rules there would be serious consequences.

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Soft Revolution.

Avian

The main problem would be that we are already spread too thin in Iraq and Afghanistan. Militarily, our options aren't too board. I always wondered what Israel would do if Iran went nuclear. It has often been said that Iran would be more likely to nuke Israel and not the U.S. I think that the best hope now if for the U.N. to demand a fair election. There is a strong resistance to the Iranian leadership, and an election would remove the radicals from power.

imported_Graham

I agree with everything you said Avian. We are spread too thin. That is why we need a coalition comprised of more than just a majority US. I agree with the fair elections, if you look at the past other countries that came close with nukes, Brazil, South Korea, and so many others, the reason they stopped was regime change. It was the one common denominator in those situations. Unfortunately, in Iran (and N Korea for that matter) a regime change seems at least a couple decades away. And your question about what Isreal would do is a good one. I think they would have no choice but to take military action. A country like Iran is hell-bent on destroying the West even if they destroy themselves. I think in this day and age it is implied that if you use nuclear force against the US or its allies, your country will no longer exist. But Iran doesn't care, which is what is scary. The US does has to worry about Isreal's safety, but our own first. At this point Iran's only capable of about a 2000 mile delivery system, which won't reach the US by a long shot. We need to keep them from getting a delivery system if, in fact, they obtain nuclear weapons.

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Soft Revolution.

Kingmob

I think the West needs to get down of its high horse and stop attempting to force the rest of the world to develop along with its ideology.

To date who is the only country ever to have used a nuclear weapon on another country?

"Regime Change" is a total joke. I mean look at Iraq. What have we achieved with that? thousands upon thousands of dead children blown to pieces by Coalition bombs. The orphans of this conflict are your next generation of extremists right there.

It started as a war on Terror. So we invade Afghanistan. Then its "oh well Irag is obviously involved. They have WMDS!!!!" so we invade them too. For what? Bloody civil war, and lots of really juicy contracts re-building the infrastructure for Halliburton and their cronies.

Then what? The US gets twitchy looking for who to fight next. Even though it still has US soldiers beong blown to bits everyday in the Irag (buts is ok cause none of the Bush family is going to end up in a bodybag that way). Will it be Iran? Syria? North Korea? For our sins, our own damned fool of a PM drags britain along behind, further isolating us from our firends in Europe by tying the nation to Dubya's ludicrous Warwagon.

Stop trying to act like world police. You have enough fucked up shit going on in your own country to go around telling everyone else what they should be doing.

imported_Graham

Haha. You're an idiot. No one is dragging Britain. You guys obviously elected a shitty prime minister if you don't like where he's taking you. And as for regime change I'm talking on the countries own terms, not those of the US. Some type of coup more likely than that. And like I said, that's not likely. And as for the War in Iraq, I'm not defending it, it was clearly a mistake, but we have to finish it now that we're in there. And we used two nuclear bombs to end a conflict in which historians predict over 600,000 Americans and over 2 million Japanese would have died had we fought all the way to the mainland. we traded 2.6 million for 140,000. Iran, on the other hand, wants nuclear missiles simply to destroy the west. And don't tell the West to get off their high horse, cause you're the West, too and you can bet that if Iran gets bombs, they will use them on you, too. So when you say that the west should stop dabbling in the affairs of the rest of the world you're pretty much saying "I don't care if Iran has nuclear capacity."

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Soft Revolution.

Avian

I was mainly concerned about what actions Israel might take if Iran goes nuclear. I truly believe that Israel will go pre-emptive on Iran and start World War III. And Kingmob, and agree that a military strike is probably not our best option. The best option would be to get the United Nations to force Iran to stop the program, or have it face economic sanctions from every member nation. Do I think this will happen? No, because the UN hasn't been able to accomplish anything in the political realm lately, but if the EU and the US unite, we might be able to pressure them enough to at least send the program underground and slow it a little.

imported_Graham

The problem with economic sanctions is that Iran has oil. The world needs oil. If we refuse to trade with them, we lose out on oil. And they know that. Another problem with economic sanctions is that money isn't an issue for them. They have the money to build a nuclear bomb now, they just don't have the technology. We need to better regulate the kinds of things that Iran is getting in trade.

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Soft Revolution.

Kingmob

Don't run your mouth if yo don't know what your talking about.

British citizens to not elect a prime minister.

Less than 20% of electorate voted for the Labour Party. The turn out is only 60%. So forty percent of the nation didn't vote at all, and 80% didn't vote for Tony. That's far more against him than for him. So yes, I would say that his ludicrous foreign policy decisions are "dragging us" along behind the US was Wagon. He's going to be out on his ear at the next elections based almost entirely on his backing for Bush.

Regime Change? On a countrys own terms? Is that why you armed Iraq against Iran in the 80's? Give regime change a little helping hand? What about Cuba? Libya? Nicaragua? Grenada? How many of our South American neighbours would you like sorted out? That Chavez doesn't much care for you? Maybe you should encourage regime change in Venezuala too?

And your right, I am saying I don't care if Iran has Nuclear weapons. Unless there is unilateral disarmament of all nuclear weapons, the US, the UK or the UN have no right whatsoever to demand that other countries should do without.

Tying our foreign policy to the US has made Britain more of a Target to Terrorists. The 7/7 Bombings where a direct response to the war in Iraq.

So the US is cooking up some Phoney reason to go in and take the oil just like in Iraq.

imported_Graham

haha youre totally twisting my words. Iraq exports less than 10% of the oil in the middle east. the real giants are kuwait and saudi arabia. iran exports about the same amount as Iraq, which isnt really all that much. im not saying the US is perfect, far from, but we dont follow all these misconceptions you have about us.

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Soft Revolution.

Kingmob

I haven't twisted anything. Please point out my "misconceptions" about US foreign policy.

BamaStangGuy

We are in a tough situation. We are fighting a war with an enemy that does no adhear to the Geneva Convention while we are held under a microscope with every move we make by the world.

I believe that we should do whatever it takes to defeat the enemy. This is war and not a tea party.